The question is: does a Jew know enough how to be a mentch only from learning Chassidus?
Altie says:
[If one learns Chassidus, but is not a mentch,] then maybe there is a glitch in communication. you can't say that the rabeim didn't teach simple ahavas yisroel, or implement it themselves. So maybe the chassidim themselves missed it, or ignored it. maybe they were so intent on learning chassidus, becoming closer to god, doing the ratzon of the rebbe, that they forgot or missed the main point.
you generalize. but if you look at the community, there are many individuals on their own that are doing good, that are nice, and kind, and helpful. it is each persons avodah, not a group as a whole.
OK, but what specifically does it mean to be kind and helpful and nice? What does ahavas Yisroel mean? Bringing a Jew closer to Eibeshter, putting on tefillin, giving Shabbos candles, learning with him/her Chumash with Rashi, Tanya, etc. Sure. That we know. What about being polite? Being sensitive? Not embarrassing another person in public? What does this mean exactly: helping somebody out, being empathetic, being involved? Being nice?
I know a lot of individual Chassidim do this and know this already. It's just I don't know where they get this from. From their parents only? From their teachers in schools?
In secular Russian intelligentsia families, besides getting this from the family, one gets this from "Classical" literature. Which usually includes 19th and early-20th-century Russian writers and a selection of foreign writers. Obviously, a goyish model.
I am sure I am just an ignoramus. And perhaps this is talked about in Chassidus. Or perhaps people got this from direct communication with the Rebbe.
I heard a story of a chossid who had sholom bayis problems. He came to the Rebbe and said: "I am always very careful about folding the talles on motzei Shabbos, which is supposed to be a segulah for sholom bayis. And yet I still have problems." The Rebbe answered: "Maybe you should be more careful about helping out with the dishes than about folding the talles."
So, I want to see something in Chassidus that explains this in such an organized detail as — I don't know — the concept of arich vs. atik.
It just seems to me this is not the topic of Chassidus. Chassidus Chabad is theology. It teaches a Jew about G-d. In order to have koach for being an ethical person, one needs to be constantly aware of the source of ethics: G-d. Aware in the most intimate and constant way. That Chassidus Chabad takes care of (not that this is the main purpose of Chassidus).
But what is the contents of the ethics? What exactly does it mean, to be an ethical person?
Look, it's obvious that something's wrong. There are Yidden who keep mitzvos and behave like jerks. Whose kids are vilde chayos. Who don't exhibit basic signs of awareness that they are a part of a society. Lubavitcher, non-Lubavitchers, I don't know. I see all kinds. I see religious Jews behaving in a way in which average goyim or frei Yidden do not.
And I have never even been in Israel. Where, I am told, it's worse. Much worse. Which is also incredibly upsetting. I am no Zionist; my view on Israel is approximately that of the Rebbe (not only because he is my Rebbe, but because it makes sense). But you came to Eretz Yisroel to behave like this? Doing chillul Hashem outside of it was not enough?
When my aunt in Israel tells me that a single frum family moved in to their apartment building, and suddenly there is garbage everywhere, I don't know what to say. When my uncle's friend tells me that he's seen a camp of frum kids go to a forest in upstate NY and leave garbage just lying around (somehow it's always about garbage), I give excuses. I say everyone behaves this way. I say this to him. But to myself I say: Jews who learn Torah should not be like this.
A mother of somebody I knew who is a baalas teshuva herself told me once that she had thought that being a frum Jew means being a better person. And then she realized that it was an idealistic thought. That people become frummer Jews but remain the same people.
I don't accept this answer. Torah should change a person.
Nor do I accept another answer which I got from another frum Jew (who learns Chabad Chassidus, to say the least): "This is who I am, and it's not going to change."
I don't.
17 comments:
what being good means changes from place to place. a New yorker in texas will seem rude no matter what. for ex. pushing in a chasidishe restaurant is normal or grabbing from someone else plate. throwing a plate of food at a farby. saying hello to a woman on the street in a small rural town is considered polite, in mea shearim they will stone you.
all thease rules vary by place and society i think people just like to sit and judge.
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Think about it. What was life like before we had chassidus in the world? we learn about the timesbefore the Baal shem tov. The world was in a faint. He came along to wake them up. He was the one who brought the concept that simple people are important too. The talmidai chachomim of those times were so into torah learning that they disrespected and mistreated their fellow jews, the ones who didnt know how to learn torah. the baal shem tov taught love for every single jew.
Going back to the source usually helps. You want a source. I don't have a source. I can't help you with that.
Part of it is cultural, as you and fakewood pointed out. Part of it has to do with your parents. How they raised you, and how they were raised. If you grew up with a mother like mine who does favors for everyone and can't say no, then you learn.
My question is: with an example like the Rebbe, how can they NOT learn? There is a story of the Baal shem tov, I believe. That the synogogue was waiting for him to start kol nidrai, and he was out cutting wood for a lady who just gave birth.
Wake up call?? Countless stories of the Rebbe that showed such pure ahavas yisroal for every single jew. Too many to share here.
I still don't have a source for you. I can't tell you where it says in chassidus that you must me nice to every single jew. BUT I think that a person who doesn't know that is an ignoramous, and is not worthy to learn chassidus.
Maybe we should all become Jews for jesus. they seem like nice ppl. and missionaries. so nice and well dressed and well manered.
You're making an assumption that transmission b'al peh is enough. Again and again this assumption has failed us, and then the time to write down and teach the orally transmitted ideas has come.
And you think the christians wrote down all their concepts?
Maybe it is written down. Your job now is to find it.
Christians? Where did they come from?
It is written down.
There once was a man named jesus christ... i'm kidding.
if it's written down, then what's your question? i thought you wanted a source. or are u just trying to find a reason why so many jews are selfish people?
CA, I disagree with your use of the term Theology to describe it. That implies that there is no "self-help" aspect to the subject. Chassidus is very much about making oneself a better person. From Chochma down to Malchus... All these things are reflected in me and in you, and when you learn a Maamer about Arich, its also talking about the Arich within you. I see the frum problem as being a lack of awareness, which is *precisely* what Chabad though is there to fix. Our way is (supposed to be) all about conscious living. Its not just about understanding why you do a mitzvah. Its about remembering that as you do it. Its about being conscious of the fact that you left garbage in the park... The problem is when it isn't communicated properly. Don't blame Chassidus for misinterpetation...
I said on Altie’s post that I agree that Chassidus is still the best way to improve the middos.
It seems to me that people don’t understand there is anything wrong with leaving garbage. I.e., they are not so much weak as ignorant. The same regarding everything else.
It’s not just ahavas yisroel. Suddently, there are a bunch of lectures appearing online for FFB’s about different aspects of marriage that say things that are commonsensical to ba’alei teshuva. And presumably were commonsensical to the FFBs’ grandparents. (Or maybe not.)
So that's corruption of a pure idea. Chassidus is supposed to give us that awareness that would prevent the wrongdoing. You said: "It just seems to me this is not the topic of Chassidus. Chassidus Chabad is theology". That's somewhat true, but the means to this end is through self-betterment.
I mean that Chassidus is a study of G-d. G-d Himself, G-d in you, G-d in Torah, G-d in the Universe. Etc.
It doesn’t tell you what G-d wants. Halacha tells you that.
L’choira, it doesn’t tell you what exactly it means to be a mentch either. In my life, my family told me that. There are other sources: the Rebbe, yeshiva, mashpi’im, farbrengens, lehavdil, literature, army, war, going mountain climbing. Of course, the Rebbe talked about it. Of course, one’s parents teach one about this. But just like common sense about what it means to be a good parent or a good husband seems to be dissipating, so does what it means to be a mentch.
Actually, for me, in Chassidic literature (using an umbrella term), FR’s memoirs were the best source of this.
Tell me if you think this assessment works:
Chassidus is in place to give you the framework for a purposeful and conscious life. Good old interpersonal relationships included.
The nitty gritty of social graces can only come from your parents/teachers/mentors etc... As Fakewood said, its largly a cultural thing. All of that however, is built upon the foundation the Chassidus has (hopefully) given you.
Fair enough?
About "good",
is it not irrelevent what people take granted to mean "good"? I mean, aside from cases of Kiddush Hashem, it is good that the world's good has evolved over time to the Torah's definition of "good". But why stop the transition and accept what and one of "they" (referencing distinct cultures/societies) as truly good.
Good is what Hashem says is good.
This reminds me to a previous post of CA, that told me that there are two kinds of chossidim. Those who do what the Rebbe said, and those who make excuses. I think that the same applies to Yiddishkeit, and values, and culture.
I'm noone to make a judgement, but I thought to share this speculation.
tRP: That's why I made the distinction above between the framework and the details. Yes, there are certain things that are 'good' in an absolute sense. Yet there are also things that are very subjective. Read Fakewood's comment in the beginning to see a few examples.
right, and spitting during aleinu applies as well. I mean to say, what are we/our inherited influences from surrounding countries/non Jewish ethics to have a say in this? It is all relative.
My point is, are they significant? relevant?
Its one thing if one adapts these things as a means. i.e. parnoso, to be presentable.
But even that stems from Torah.
Crawling Axe:
Perhaps the answer lies in Hillel's answer to the potential convert, "What is hated to you do not do to your fellow".
Chassidus teaches you how your fellow Jew is an extension of G-d and of yourself. Once you can appreciate that, living your life by Hillel's statement should cover the rest. Chassidus gives you that sensitivity.
Perhaps we could say it like this: If you have a general sensitivity towards another person, you don't need a specific guide to tell you what you need to do.
Of course if you're missing that sensitivity, then you need specific guidelines, telling you what to do.
This reminds me to a previous post of CA, that told me that there are two kinds of chossidim. Those who do what the Rebbe said, and those who make excuses.
I didn't post it, I said that while talking to e. RSP said that when discussing whether the Rebbe was talking about hard lenses or soft lenses. To which PC: "The Rebbe doesn't want you to be a dumb ass. Look in the context."
La-Z-Boy and Menachem, I agree with what you say. You can't teach eidelkeit and menchlachkeit. It needs to come from within and needs to be cultivated from a very young age by one's family and mashpi'im. Oftentimes not in a declarative form but through personal example.
But the truth is: we have a problem in frum community at large. Pushing and shoving in a restaurant is not the issue. I am talking about normal human relationship and respect.
So, perhaps eidelkeit needs to be taught too. It has happened in our history. There were times when a Rav could look into Chumash and have enough eidelkeit and ruach ha'koidesh to know what a Halacha is in a particular situation. But then that was lost, and Oral Torah was written down and studied.
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