I had a conversation with a friend yesterday, in which I confessed that I have no idea what the avoida of women in Yiddishkeit and in Chassidus is. Which is still true.
My friend answered: to make things and people the best they can be. Or something along those lines.
I could say that I have these problems and those problems with the answer, and a different set of problems with the alternative answer, but the most intelligent thing I will say is that I still don't really know. (In general, ignorance seems to be my predominant state lately.)
But seeing this joke just now (on this blog) reminded me of my friend’s assertion:
The governor of Texas and his wife are driving through a small town and getting gas. The governor notices that his wife is looking very closely at the gas station attendant filling them up. He remembers that she was born and grew up in this very town and figures out what two plus two is. After they drive off, the following conversation ensues:
— Hey, aren’t you from this town?
— Yes, dear.
— And you dated a few guys in this town before you moved to Dallas and met me, didn’t you?
— Yep, sure did.
— Hmm. This is really just a wild guess, but is there a chance the guy filling us up was one of them?
— Yeah, you got it. He was my former boyfriend. Didn’t recognize me though.
— In that case, can I ask you what you were thinking about when you were looking at him? Were you thinking that had you married him instead of me, instead of being a wife of the governor of Texas, you’d be married to a gas station attendant?
— No, I was thinking that had I married him, he would be the governor of Texas.
49 comments:
I dont understand russian, yet.
Women are strong, and you never forget that.
why is that a question? what a woman's job is. it just seems funny.
Because I know what a man's job is (in Yiddishkeit). But seemingly, for women it's different. Although I can't quite figure out in what way. I mean, I know the standard idea, but I am not comfortable with it.
It has nothing to do with strength/weakness. And I didn't speak Russian.
the blog you linked to is russian.
okay to me as a woman it just sounds funny. you know how a husband goes to work all day, then he comes home and asks his wife, so what did you do all day? assuming she does nothing.
now im not saying that you think we do nothing, as opposed to a mans job, but the fact that you wonder about what a woman's job is is just amusing.
i hope you find a satisfying answer.
Well, I linked as a courtesty -- to show where I got the joke from. The post was just that joke and the guy describing his and his wife's reaction to it.
I didn't mean that at all. The whole model of men coming back from work, and women making the household run, makes me uncomfortable. If that's the case, of course I know what women's "job" in this situation is: to allow men to be who they are. It's just not something that lies well with me. Maybe because I am not mamosh frum, as I said.
I also meant more general avoida in Chassidus and Yiddishkeit. For men it's clear: veni vidi vici. Or not vici, but at least tried to. Just follow Tanya, and it's all clear.
For women, seemingly, it's not as clear-cut and obvious.
ever watch 'that 70's show'? the wife does everything for her family. in every scene, she is cooking, making breakfast, cleaning. sometimes they dont appreciate it. and around that time was when all women said, enough with this, we are going to work.
the woman's jobin the house varies from culture to xculture. of course, in America today, if you ARE stay at home mom you are looked down upon as not having a career. which is wrong.
a woman's job is to raise her kids in the right way. take care of the family, and to make sure the house runs smoothly. Sexist? maybe.
well tell me if you find an answer.
I wasn't talking about not appreciating what women do around house. I was talking about having a problem with the fact that this is what women do: raise kids, create an atmosphere of warmth and happiness in the house, make it possible for their husbands to grow in their avoida. I am not saying I don't appreciate those things; I am saying I have a problem with those things assigned to women, while "real" stuff (actual avoida) is assigned to men.
I have read the letters and the sichos of the Rebbe.
Just like regarding the discussion of Greeks vs. Jews (e.g.), I don't care what "secular" opinion is. I don't give a damn what goyim think. I have my own head, and even if I have baggage that stems from my secular background, that has nothing to do with anything. In my head, things are like that geometrical proof that I brought a few posts down.
2+2=4 is not a goyishe chochma. It is just logic that makes sense. Just like that proof -- if you want to say it's wrong, you have to show it using logic. Point to me where exactly there is a mistake in the proof. Don't say: it's just goyishe chochma. If you accepted Jewish chochma, you'd know that it's wrong. I don't "accept" anything. I am not brain dead. I recognize and understand emes and then follow it. It makes no sense otherwise.
Having said that, my saying "I have a problem" in this case is equivalent to "I don't understand/know". I fully acknowledge that I am just an ignoramus and just need to see the right point of view. I just haven't done it yet.
Btw, I hope I am not destroying years of Lubavitch education in one stroke. That would be certainly not my goal. :)
you know how when yiou go on mivtzoyim, or even just in every day life, someone asks you a question about yidishkeit, about chassidus, and it is a question on the core, not something lofty that you never heard of, and you have learned it, and you have discussed it before, and you have talked about it in the classroom, and the answer is on the tip of your toungue, and you feel you should know it, but you just don't. you don't know the answer, and thst is a horrible feeling. like, what have i to show for all those years?
or worse, you do know the answer, but it sounds lame coming out of your mouth, like you practiced it, cuz even you don't believe it, you sound like you are just spitting out words that people fed you for years, and you dread the fact that someone will call your bluff, that they will know you are faking it.
okay, enough about me. i'm going to make donuts.
Nu. But in this case it's not about bringing another Jew to Yiddishkeit. It's about inner struggle. It's an important thing to have. Sometimes it can even be quite fun.
"That 70's show", huh? ;)
I think the second paragraph is much worse. The Rebbe didn't want us to be zombies. "It's important for a chossid to believe that his Rebbe is right, but it's even more important to know why he is right."
I think every Jew should strive to achieve a Nolan chart in his/her life. Not a case of compromise, but a case of maximization.
since when is inner struggle fun? do u know something that i dont know?
do u watch that 70's show? it's awesome. it makes me laugh.
i dont know what a Nolan chart is. and when i choose yidishkeit, and specifically chabad chassidus, as my path to follow, because i CHOSE it and i believe it to be the truth, and not cuz i was brought up that way, and that is all that i know, then i'll be sure to let you know. but it might be a long time from now. or never.
i envy you. you see things from a different perspective that i will never see it from.
Re: show -- Now that some of my fellow bloggers know who I am in real life, I don't give incriminating information about myself. (But no, not for a long time.)
Re: inner struggle. It makes you define who you are. You are in control. (Maybe it's a male thing -- even if you make a mistake, at least you were in control.)
Re: envy. Never say never. And maybe what I have is not such a good thing. I envy others, who have what I don't (and never will). I think, actually, they are better off, having grown up frum, having everything in their lives set up for them.
Nolan chart is about not compromising between being a conservative and a liberal, but taking the best from both and being a libertarian. Or, as someone described me once, "somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan".
okay. I'm not gonna say I don't envy you, but we are on two different sides of the fence. I am grateful that I was brought up the way I was, but sometimes I wish I had a say in the matter, and had a choice. I KNOW i have a choice, a human always has a choice, but as lovely as that sounds, when given the choice to be religious, or not to be religious, there is one obviously correct choice, and one convenient one. And no, G-d doesn't always expect us to choose the right one. I know. But to me, it seems that if it was my choice from the start, it might be easier to embrace it. As opposed to rebelling now, or going off the path completely, just to come back on. That does seem pointless.
I just beat up some dough. Lots of fun.
I am not talking about going off the derech, chv"sh. I am talking about the famous story with Tzemach Tzedek and a chossid about being a chossid automatically.
Doing your woman’s job, huh? :)
haha lol. no way. i'm making donuts for the fun of it, and if they dont turn out good my family will eat them anyway, or else.
you're talking about the chossid with the kapota vs. the business suit?
One chossid came with his einekel to the Tzemach Tzedek and said: "I was a chossid of the Maggid. After that, I was a chossid of the Horodoker. After that, I was a chossid of your zeide. Then your uncle. Now I am your chossid. I have seen a lot. I can tell my grandchild a lot. I would like a brocha that he seems my example and that Chassidus rubs off on him."
Tzemach Tzedek answered: "For already the fifth (from Baal Shem Tov) generation we have been fighting that Yiddishkeit is something that is internalized, and you want your grandson to become an 'automatic' chossid?!"
in other words, you gotta work on it, it doesn't come by title. I have yet to find something in life that's actually free, no strings attached.
in other news, my donut's flopped.
Flopped?
At least you didn’t spill some boric acid with EDTA on yourself.
(When they said tzitzis is your shield, they weren’t kidding...)
i poured a whole bunch of blue icing on them. my mama ate them and told me they were good. they taste like yeast, but of course she had to say that. but i did make latkes, those came out really good.
whats your story? you okay?
Yeah, I started running an RNA gel. And my elbows itch. I think I’ll be fine. Tzitzis and my shoes took most of the attack. (I touched a stopper on a container with the acid/EDTA to turn it, so I can pour some, and the whole thing came off, with liquid gushing all over the place, including myself.)
Latkes are one of the few things I know how to make. And I make them a lot during the year. Also, everything with eggs.
uhu i saw your scrumptious egg creation. not many ppl would take care to make pretty eggs. latkes are good, but they get nauseating after about 2. very oily.
you got an acid burn? what's RNA gel? and didnt your mama teach you not to play with acid?
My latkes are not greasy. They are thin and crunchy. I don’t make an effort to make good eggs (on my Facebook, I have pictures of my eggs; they look like dog vomit -- still taste the best though).
It was very diluted acid. I think I’ll be fine. My mama is a scientist herself (although not a lab scientist; more of a field scientist), so she is a poor example.
RNA gel is an agarose gel, on which you run your RNA sample to see how much RNA you have. (I assume you know what RNA is...) It’s officially known as Northern blot.
you put up pictures of making eggs on basement blog, right?
I didn't know what RNA was. now I know its similar to DNA, but different. I'd ask you why you wanted to know how much RNA you have, but this is getting too complicated for me. okay then.
happy chanuka. enjoy your latkes, mine are really good.
Happy Chanukah.
Altie, just add powdered sugar and no one will know.
When I was in seminary we were taught that our jobs were to make a "Jewish home." A full-time job, right along with the chinuch of children. We had classes on relationships, how to plunge a toilet, and what to do if your child got worms. I forgot what do with the latter. In either case, this was supposed to be a priority, and anything outside of that being important as well, but still secondary. We were taught that taking care of the home was compared to the service of the kohanim in the Bais Hamikdash.
I have to admit that while learning all this, I got a bit annoyed. It could also be that the teachers irritated me. Actually they really irritated me. But I do recognize how crucial a job it is. I see the wisdom of it. And I don't necessarily think it's sexist. At least in regards to child-rearing.
The other tasks I think could be split up among the couple depending on what kind a relationship they have. In some cases it's the woman who works while the husband cleans and cooks.
I'm going off on tangents. And I guess I don't really have an answer but I thought I'd give some input. Personally, I still plan on being a practicing artist.
eyes wide, some powdered sugar around your mouth
look surprised,
"why is that a question? what a woman's job is. it just seems funny."
lower and shake ur head and return to donut eating business.
love ur use of "mama"
A women's job?
whats a man's job? care to define? i think we can work from there.
Sarah, why is plumbing the toilet or taking care of kids with worms (I think if kids get worms, one of the parents has failed already) something reserved for women? I understand there is polarity in some of male and female best assets, but honestly, I don’t think it’s quite as severe as portrayed.
We get bogged down in gashmiusdik details, however (which is also indicative of something, btw). I am more concerned with ruchnius. I spoke with my rabbi’s brother-in-law over Shabbos (a very chassidishe yid). He told me: "With you, if something you do is not directed to Hashem, it’s sholosh klipos tmeios. When you go to a store to buy a pair of shoes, you ask yourself: ’Do I really need this pair of shoes to connect to Hashem?’ With women it’s different. They can just get a pair of shoes."
That’s the part I am really trying to understand. Not who should be plumbing the toilet. (Yes, ok, maybe shoes were not a good example. They never are. I didn’t mean to touch the sacred.)
lol. i mde the donuts, i didnt eat them.
Twas just repeating what I was taught. I refuse to be the only one plunging toilets. As I'm sure is the case with most women.
In regards to the ruchnius...our ruchnius goes straight into the gashmius. We connect to Hashem by doing mitzvos, some of those mitzvos are mundane physical things. The ruchnius is not a seperate thing for us, it is tied with the gashmius. We make that tie. But you're right, it's not quite so clear cut...
Sheesh, now when I thought I had an answer I'm not sure anymore.
Sarah, I know. That's my point. I don't get it. I mean, I get it, but something inside me doesn't sit right with it.
The model is very simple. All the stuff that men learn in Chassidus, they reach through doing mitzvos and learning Torah. All the giluim. The Atzmus. Dira b'tachtoinim. Pnimiyus abba -- pnimiyus attik. Yichud of soivev and memalei. Etc.
While women cook them breakfast, change the kids' dipers and also sometimes earn parnoso. Now, when a husband does a mitzva, the wife gets the light for it. When a bochur in yeshiva is putting on tefillin, his future wife is "putting on tefillin" too (spiritually only, of course -- one would hope). The same way, when the wife is lighting Shabbos candles, the husband is lighting Shabbos candles too.
Now, when a wife cooks a breakfast for the husband, she is reaching whatever the husband is reaching when he is learning Torah using the energy from the breakfast.
It's not just breakfast. It's all the wonderful and beautiful things which all men must value that allow them to grow and be who they are.
Of course, there is also upbringing of kinderlach, which is the job of the women, because they do it better than men by nature. Which is more precious than any job a woman can get, any Gemara or ma'amor she can learn.
That's the model. I get it. I've heard it and read it many times. Somehow for me it's lacking shleimus. Maybe it's the dreadful F-word ("feminism") lurking in my secular baggage.
it's a very good question. in my (extended) fam there is a spiritual tendency which also pervades the women. so this is question is brought up.
I've seen women who only make breakfast, and cannot learn a maamer.
Ive seen women that dont make (or eat) breakfast, are learning.
Ive heard of women who can and want to learn a maamer, and make breakfast. I guess they pick up snippets from what they hear, and "learn" that way.
I feel like the boy-- let off, bec I can/ have learnt and been to the Beis Chana tzfas "Yeshiva" (where I saw girls concentrate on shabbos davening for a long time, obv this is part of the education there) I feel like my avoda is enriched I can never get hooked up with myself and as a girl constantly have to occupy in various gashmius things and there is so much avoda there...
(and I never even mentioned my mother who is too complicated in this whole thing for me to prototype: but gave me the foundation for being able to say what I have, above. maybe ill try: can and wants to learn. learns with sons all the time, and with husband, as mentioned seriously spiritual, cannot really make breakfast because to spaced out, but always does. is artistic so sometimes delicious and beautiful, but never ordinary)
I never feel at home in these conversations bec maybe you are not getting an answer bec of kol kvuda and here I am- ruining it.
Not ruining. Just complicating. :)
Is "making a breakfast" a metaphor for all presumed female "duties" (as I used it), or mamosh making a breakfast?
a metaphor
As I said, complicating. But also encouraging.
sounds positive. I totally forgot to consider whom I am addressing with this (overwrought rant). If you are unsure about something please allow me to clarify.
Whom are you addressing? :) I am not sure what you mean by that.
Everything you said was clear. I meant that it complicates my view of the situation. The fact that there are women like you described shows that not everything is so simple and clear-cut.
whom am I addressing?
I didn't consider it; i dont know
therefore some terms may be unclear or whatnot
i am sure you understand what I wrote and wouldn't mind if you shared how this is or is not complicating your view on women's avoda (, yet encouraging).
I think an important point that is being neglected here is that women have contributions to the world outside of making a home and being supportive of their husbands. These are great tasks, responsibilities, and accomplishments, but they do not comprise the totality of the feminine identity. Being a woman is a complicated thing, and I think most women feel they have strengths and gifts that can find expression in the world at large, and not at the expense of their home life or personal relationships. That's why feminism is not a bad word, because in its purest form that is most consistent with Judaism, it is about the world recognizing that women have a place in contemporary dialogues and important contributors to the global community. All of this can be done without compromising Tznius, as well - it's a matter of intelligent and mature planning to make it as such. Tznius and home life are some of the central issues when talking about a woman's role according to Judaism, but it is short sighted to think that it is their only role, particularly in Moshiach Tzeiten.
Marriages are meant to be MUTUALLY supportive relationships; women encourage and bring out the best in their husbands, yes, but men should, too.
Men and women each have value outside of the context of how they relate to their families, in other words. The role of women in Judaism is a lot more complex than the role they take in relation to man.
My main interest was women’s avoida in ruchnius (in comparison to that of men). Which cma has addressed to some extent showing that not all women follow the standard model.
The same model applies to a women's role in ruchnius. Women have spiritual lives, strengths and obligations beyond child rearing and making their husbands governors of Texas. When it comes down to it, a woman's role, like a man, is to utilize her talents and abilities to serve Hashem through Torah and Mitzvos and spread the light of Yiddishkeit. While the details may differ, shabbos candles in place of teffilin, the ultimate goal is the same. At times, being the child bearer, she may have to physically fulfill fewer mitzvos, just as a man, with the obligation to support a family may have to cut down on his Torah learning, but they are aiming for the same result.
So, in your opinion, are women given the same (spiritual) tools as men in the community to achieve that?
Also, do you really think this is the traditional model and the model that exists in most communities?
This is from a letter I received in one of my subscriptions (I am copy-pasting):
-------------------
Chazal tell us ( ברכות י"ז ע"א, סוטה כ"א ע"א ), "What is the זכות of the women (in learning תורה )? Their טירחא in
bringing their sons to חדר to learn with their רבי , the waiting for their husbands to return at night from the בית
המדרש and the permission they give them to leave and go learn תורה in another city."
The רבי רש"ב related the following story that he had heard while traveling through the city of פרעשבורג : Once
the two גאונים, ר' עקיבא איגר and the חתם סופר were involved in a complicated דין תורה , concerning the
dividing of a ירושה between brothers (who were known גבירים ), and after a few days, they reached a .פסק דין
Afterwards, a סעודה was held, and during the meal, the חתם סופר told ר' עקיבא איגר that he had become an
אלמן ל"ע , and although he is not so young, he would remarry if a suitable שידוך was proposed. Immediately ' ר
עקיבא איגר proposed his youngest daughter and the קבלת קנין was made right there.
לע"נ שרה רבקה בת ר׳ יוסף ע"ה • לע"נ ציפא אסתר בת ר׳ שלום דובער ע"ה
A few weeks later, the חתם סופר received a letter from ר' עקיבא איגר notifying him to come to the .חתונה
After the חתונה , the חתם סופר returned with his Rebbetzin to פרעשבורג . Unfortunately, a short while later, his
Rebbetzin passed away, but they did not notify her father, in order not to pain him. Three years passed and ' ר
עקיבא איגר sent a letter saying that he intends to come to פרעשבורג to visit his daughter. The חתם סופר was in
a quandary: should he tell his שווער , so he will not travel in vain? He asked advice from three רבנים , and they
advised him not to say anything, but to put another woman in her place, and rely on the צדקות of ר' עקיבא איגר
that he will not ask to see his daughter's face.
When ר' עקיבא איגר arrived in פרעשבורג and entered the חתם סופר 's house, the two began a תורה discussion
which lasted for three days, and their mouths did not stop speaking תורה . When it was time for him to leave,
ר' עקיבא איגר climbed into his wagon and called out, " שרה'קע , my daughter, how are you?" The women
responded, " ב"ה ," and ר' עקיבא איגר went home (מגדל עז ע' ר"ל) .לחיים ולשלום
-----------------
Whether or not women are given the spiritual tools to be meaningfully involved in peulos outside of their husband and kids is something each woman has to ask herself, and each man has to consider, given the women he knows and the woman community activists (including shluchos, chesed organizers, etc) that he has come into contact with.
As far as woman's role in learning, there is a gemorrah class at Bais Rivkah as per the Rebbe's instructions, and Sarah Shneirer's movement for women to learn is widely supported.
Thanks for your responses.
And Chassidus?
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