There should be an instinctive, irrational emotion of disgust to breaking the law of the country, even if it is not right.What can I answer to that? First of all, I sympathize with the sentiment. I was raised believing the same, and it is still possibly the natural, irration, emotional response in me — a response which I believe, nevertheless, is not intellectually justified. I have a similar response of emotional respect to the "ways of the land", i.e., the customs and manners of the particular community. This is something completely different from the law, and I will not address it in the post, but suffice it to say that I am more sympathetic to such a sentiment.
Secondly, I believe that what, for the most part, determines something to be moral or immoral is G-d's Law, Halacha. Therefore, if something is against Halacha, it is considered to be immoral. I believe I can find sufficient sources (such as Tosfos) to back up my opinion that the halachic principle of dina d'malchusa dina ("the law of the land is the law") applies only to monetary issues. (And even then there are nuances, such as in the cases when the law is clearly unjust — as, one could argue, is the case with the majority of taxes.)
The possibility when something is not against Halacha but is conventionally or logically considered to be immoral is interesting to consider, but is outside the scope of this post. In here, I am going to argue, briefly (since I have devoted many posts to the topic already) that not only is going against the law of the land not immoral, but in fact, in most cases, the idea of the law of the land, as practiced today in most countries is by itself logically, naturally immoral.
Here is my response to the above statement:
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Why should there be an immediate instinctive disgust to breaking the law of the country? I really don’t see it. I disrespect the idea of the government and the laws in general, unless they exist as an extension of people’s natural rights (e.g., to protect themselves — from which you get the government, whose function is to protect people, and the laws, whose goal is to protect people).
I naturally, instinctively, rationally, emotionally abhor tyranny and violation of privacy. I am disgusted by someone telling me whom I should do business with. It violates my natural, G-d–given rights (the idea upon which this country was founded, by the way — so, by supporting this idea, one goes against the fabric of this country’s society, as our current president’s goal is, according to one of his radio interviews from earlier days).
What separates me from anarchists is the belief that minimal government and enforcement (internal and external) are necessary to provide universal protection of the citizens of the society (the idea in support of which the Federalists argued in their Papers, defending Constitution; their opponents, by the way, argued that the Constitution would lead to the circus that exists nowadays, when we live under semi-camouflaged totalitarian regime).
In other words: what I personally disrespect is the idea that one adult can tell another adult how to live his life (unless these instructions come from G-d; but, we are operating outside of Halacha here, right?). Now, the only time that can be permissible is if the second adult is infringing upon the first adult’s rights. So, I don’t have a right to tell you how to dress. But I do have a right to tell you not to steal my pencil, please (that right extends from my right to my pencil). And since I have that right, I have a right to hire a guard who will keep an eye on my pencil to make sure you won’t steal it. If you try to steal it, the guard will prevent it. In this case, he is not telling you what to do with your own life, since you’re actually now infringing on my life.
Next step is both of us hiring the same guard and telling him to protect us from each other. That is the only function of the guard. Here be Rollo.
Now, imagine the guard starts suddenly telling us that we can’t wear clothes of the particular color. Or do business with someone? Or he will force us to educate our children certain way. Or, he will (by force) take money from us to give to someone else. What in the world? First of all, what right does he have? The only right he had to begin with to restrict you from stealing my pencil was my right to protect my pencil. I delegated my right to protect my property to the guard. But since neither I nor anyone else ever had a right to rob another person (or force him to do other things), nobody could delegate such a right to the guard. The guard cannot have such a right in principle. So, if he does any of the said activities, he is just a tyrant and a bully. And supporting him is immoral!
Note that I am not just saying: “eh, law, shmoh, who cares?” I am saying that following the law and government blindly is exactly opposite from a moral behavior.
I am hardly the first one to have such ideas*. There are whole schools out there which explain and defend these ideas, from philosophical to ethical to economic to historical points of view. See also this. [End of response.]
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Clicking on the label "libertarianism", one can open up many more posts that discuss this and other similar issues.
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* In fact, apparently, this philosophy can be traced all the way to Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. In recent times, it has been presented by a number of philosophers such as John Locke and really became the basis for the Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation, as well as the anti-Federalist (which was really federalist) sentiment in the US Constitution.
26 comments:
Well presented.
Thank you.
Is this supposed to be a Jewish point of view? What if I told you a different story - people are meant to be part of a society so the needs of the individual are to be set aside to advance the needs of the society. Any rights that the individual has, any private property that he holds, etc. are at the pleasure of the society
In theory, the needs of the society should be determined by one man - a king - whose will embodies the will of the society. However, this usually results in corruption, so in modern times, we elect people to represent the society's needs.
It’s supposed to be my point of view, not a Jewish one (although it doesn’t have to be against a Jewish view).
The different story that you present is slavery. Logically, it seems immoral from all aspects (individual natural morality, societal utilitarian morality, etc.).
How is it slavery?
And how did you become such a crazy libertarian?
It’s slavery because the society owns you.
Mises.org
Btw, I am libertarian domestically only. I still think it’s ok to invade other nations.
So, its slavery in the crazy libertarian sense of the word.
But, normal people can talk about it and not see it as slavery.
The benefits that accrue to the individual, on average, from being part of a society, make being "owned" by society a good deal.
So, after years of telling you that the Torah is not libertarian, you read one crazy libertarian website and that's it....
"What is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" this is Midah Beinonis. But, some say, "This is Midas Sdom."
Individuals don’t accrue benefits from being ruled by a beehive.
I am well aware that my political views may not be supported by Torah. But you know, my medical views are not supported by Torah either. “Nature has changed.”
Anyway, the metzius of libertarian argument is very clearly right. The web-site merely opened my eyes to what logically makes sense.
Why is it obvious to you that a person that lives by eating society's food, living on society's land, accessing society's received wisdom, using or trading society's natural resources should be entitled to absolute protection of "his" property?
You could argue that it is best for society to pretend that the property is "his" because that will motivate him to develop as best as possible, which will give maximum benefit to society, but I don't see how it is obvious as a moral position.
In other words, John Galt was wrong.
I am not trying to make an argument “best for society” at all. Even though libertarianism is best for society. But utalitarianism doesn’t work. There is a good series on mises.org by Roderick Long about this.
It is the individual’s right to have his property, because it is his extension as a human being. If you don’t recognize his rights to his products of labor and his talents, you don’t recognize him as a human being.
Anyway, “the society” is a stupid, made-up concept. I don’t buy into being a slave of the beehive. I don’t owe anything to any system; the system owes it to me.
Who’s John Galt?
My job here is done.
Is it?
A person doesn’t live by using society’s land, food or wisdom. He gets all those things in exchange for labor that he does for other individual people who have land, food or wisdom. Through free-market economy. It’s not about person vs. society; it’s about person vs. other people.
After further consideration, no.
Then back me up.
It is the individual’s right to have his property, because it is his extension as a human being. If you don’t recognize his rights to his products of labor and his talents, you don’t recognize him as a human being
Funny, that is exactly what the Communists said- if you take from the laborer the fruit of his labor, you enslave him. Yet you Libertarians have no problem with the concept of Capitalism, person A does the labor using the capital of person B, so person B owns the product. Just replace "Person B" with society.
Oh, I forgot society is a stupid concept.
Anyway, “the society” is a stupid, made-up concept. I don’t buy into being a slave of the beehive. I don’t owe anything to any system; the system owes it to me.
Of you owe to the system. Everything you use belongs to the "world", and you use it at the pleasure of the "world",or system, or society.
Who’s John Galt?
If you are asking for real, that phrasing is extremely funny.
Just for the record, both Thomas Aquinas and John Locke said if the government takes private property from its citizens, it’s moral to rebel against such government, and it’s not a rebellion, because the government has destroyed its own authority.
(Or something of that sort.)
A person doesn’t live by using society’s land, food or wisdom. He gets all those things in exchange for labor that he does for other individual people who have land, food or wisdom
So you justify absolute private property by asserting that there is absolute private property. I thought that you can't prove your premise by using your premise.
If there was no such thing as absolute private property then nobody has stuff that they absolutely own, to trade with you.
If there is no private property, it’s slavery. I find such a system unappealing. I am sure Roderick Long can try to explain how it’s also immoral from basic definitions of natural rights, but I could never quite figure it out completely. To me just being someone’s slave is unappealing.
I once heard the difference between Russian immigrants who are Republicans and those who are Democrats. The second group recognized that the Soviet Union was a slave owner. And it was a bad slave owner. It didn’t take a good care of its slaves. So, they moves to the US looking for a nicer slave owner.
And the first group moved to the US looking for freedom.
Re: Communists: we don’t “take” the fruits of labor. We exchange other things for them. It’s a misconception of the capitalism.
Again, to make the argument from the standpoint of the society, we have to give credence to the concept of society as something of a greater worth as my individual freedom. But the society is just a construct. It’s not a real thing. It it an extension of my natural rights. As I exist “in nature”, there is no society. That is my state a priori. I can then enter into society, giving up only my right to judge my own disputes (I become modeh to the guard that all of us elected as a judge). All the other rights exist, and the society can only have the rights that I delegated to it.
Anyway, I have to go kill two mice, so I don’t have time to argue.
TRS: don’t ask: “whom does the bell toll for?”
All right, I shan't.
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