tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post16181224044611304..comments2023-12-24T16:36:39.633-05:00Comments on V = I·R: Is there a difference between Robin Hood and City Council?Anarchist Chossidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04129716759837282565noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-88047832194901760962011-02-03T14:33:33.469-05:002011-02-03T14:33:33.469-05:0011Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-63263111411502649912010-12-23T21:59:46.230-05:002010-12-23T21:59:46.230-05:00But religion is sentimental. Ergo religion is not ...But religion is sentimental. Ergo religion is not truth (would say the 90% or religious people).<br /><br />precisely my point!!! If you need to Oral Torah to understand the written torah, doesn't that mean that the written torah is ambiguous?ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-17558506755693768102010-12-23T21:52:39.963-05:002010-12-23T21:52:39.963-05:00For those for whom religion is about feeling good,...For those for whom religion is about feeling good, one thing must be said: “Truth is not sentimental”.<br /><br />Re: Thomas Aquinas: he had no access to Oral Torah.Anarchist Chossidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129716759837282565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-12813004367340887032010-12-23T21:39:05.890-05:002010-12-23T21:39:05.890-05:00CA: It may be hard for you to believe, but for man...CA: It may be hard for you to believe, but for many people religion is about feeling good, not about facts.<br /><br />Mor: Please do not pass judgement on my lomdus or lack thereof. I did learn chumash and rashi in cheder and learned chitas scrupulously for many years.<br /><br />The Rambam was smarter than me and saw chumash unambiguously saying one thing. Thomas Aquinas was also smarter than me and understood the same book completely differently. Do you not sense some ambiguity here? I'm not going to argue with you what's the "correct" interpretation, but you must agree that it is open to interpretation.ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04376537400767851942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-50085734414612825972010-12-23T17:36:15.023-05:002010-12-23T17:36:15.023-05:00(Actually, I am still not sure whether it’s muttar...(Actually, I am still not sure whether it’s muttar for a goy to keep a slave. Or for a Jew, for that matter. I need to ask my Rav.)CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-26514647415928419352010-12-23T17:35:03.068-05:002010-12-23T17:35:03.068-05:00A just law is such a law that does not violate som...A just law is such a law that does not violate someone’s natural rights. Using these criteria, most laws today are unjust.<br /><br />Now, if you have something that belongs to me, taking it away from you is not unjust. The specific methods of taking it, etc., are up for discussion.<br /><br />What do you mean: Torah says otherwise? Torah does not explicitly says that goyim having slaves is moral. Nor does it say that it is immoral. Nor does it say that leaving someone agunah is ossur. Or not giving someone his wallet that was washed up from the sea. It’s under the concept of m"ch.<br /><br />You know: I heard an explanation that when it says that the Beis HaMikdosh HaSheini was destroyed because people were too makpid, it means they were too exacting about what is a din al pi Halacha and did not use their heads.CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-35644487538028208132010-12-23T17:05:23.151-05:002010-12-23T17:05:23.151-05:00And saying that children of slaves remains slaves ...And saying that children of slaves remains slaves does neither of the above.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-70975415226800101132010-12-23T17:04:21.650-05:002010-12-23T17:04:21.650-05:00Well, what criteria would you use to determine wha...Well, what criteria would you use to determine what is a just law? The Supreme Court says - as long as it doesn't violate the consitution (which this court will probably hold Obama's reforms do). I think that from our perspective it makes sense to say that as long as a law doesnt violate 7 mitzvos or prevent Jews from keeping 613 it is sufficiently just.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-27528305381263592542010-12-23T16:59:42.071-05:002010-12-23T16:59:42.071-05:00ok, so the problem is that the Torah says otherwis...ok, so the problem is that the Torah says otherwise and this is where hachna'a, aka bittul comes in. Bittul to the rebbe isnt so important compared to this kind of bittul.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-73317470687913766312010-12-23T16:50:34.665-05:002010-12-23T16:50:34.665-05:00Just because a nation makes a law doesn’t mean it’...Just because a nation makes a law doesn’t mean it’s a just law.CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-81179322037835129782010-12-23T16:49:31.995-05:002010-12-23T16:49:31.995-05:00I am not talking about modern law. I am talking ab...I am not talking about modern law. I am talking about morality of slavery. I am arguing that it is immoral to keep children of the people who sold themselves as slaves. Just like it is immoral to force any kind of exchange on anyone.<br /><br />(Although, apparently, Obama disagrees, since he argues that it’s moral to force people to get a health insurance. Maybe Obama would agree that slavery is moral too.)<br /><br />OK, I have to go buy sausages now. The discussion about the morality of killing conscious creatures for food or research is next.CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-28244845809730225122010-12-23T16:46:25.379-05:002010-12-23T16:46:25.379-05:00Also, this is all purely dinei mamonos it seems so...Also, this is all purely dinei mamonos it seems so even if it wasnt in the Torah if a nation made a law like that it would hold.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-51195479788886295612010-12-23T16:45:28.224-05:002010-12-23T16:45:28.224-05:00Ok - so modern law is different than ancient law. ...Ok - so modern law is different than ancient law. I dont think that that proves anything.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-56918413309827087712010-12-23T16:44:11.655-05:002010-12-23T16:44:11.655-05:00nothing. no connection. You just asked whether the...nothing. no connection. You just asked whether there is another case of parents decisions affecting children. <br />Well, I think Yosef acquired the Egyptians (note, not members of seven nations) on Parohs' behalf.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-85715130510513960952010-12-23T16:43:06.663-05:002010-12-23T16:43:06.663-05:00In modern times if one commits some crime (e.g., d...In modern times if one commits some crime (e.g., driving without a license), he can become a slave. For some crimes he can even be executed, if you live in a republican state.<br /><br />So what? What does it have to do with his children.<br /><br />(Btw, the verdict is not clear about the above either — whether those are the most rationally moral options, but I don’t want to go there now.)CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-1456947574457029042010-12-23T16:41:34.233-05:002010-12-23T16:41:34.233-05:00i dont thin the alternative was getting physically...i dont thin the alternative was getting physically punished by your creditor you just went to jail or the king did something not nice to you or something.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-19577578521186637842010-12-23T16:40:58.077-05:002010-12-23T16:40:58.077-05:00So, what does it have to do with children of a) al...So, what does it have to do with children of a) alive, b) dead parents becoming slaves automatically?CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-67993973835059693302010-12-23T16:40:40.437-05:002010-12-23T16:40:40.437-05:00no. you can enslave someone without threatening vi...no. you can enslave someone without threatening violence. Basically, declaring bankruptcy is a modern thing. In the olden days that was never allowed. If you couldnt pay you became a slave.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-50622210044839590392010-12-23T16:38:32.093-05:002010-12-23T16:38:32.093-05:00not it is only with the estate i am pretty surenot it is only with the estate i am pretty suremornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-53625391501752857532010-12-23T16:36:20.305-05:002010-12-23T16:36:20.305-05:00I would like to see where children inherit their p...I would like to see where children inherit their parents’ debts al pi Halacha (not debts with their parents’ estate, but debts bichlal).<br /><br />Then I would like to see that it’s ok for me to threaten physical violence to extract a debt from someone.<br /><br />Third, I’d like to see that it is mutar for a goy to enslave another goy for his debts and keep his descendants as slaves.CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-21801183293407728202010-12-23T16:31:34.899-05:002010-12-23T16:31:34.899-05:00No. In order to be chayav for kidnapping you need ...No. In order to be chayav for kidnapping you need to do two things. <br />1. kidnap and<br />2. enslave<br />In other words, what pirates did on the coast of Africa was, as you say, assur for goyim certainly. <br /><br />There is enslavement that is unrelated to kidnapping which you do if again, someone owes you money and can't pay.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-3948841750697877552010-12-23T16:28:38.258-05:002010-12-23T16:28:38.258-05:00Stated more succintly: The Torah is a "crypti...Stated more succintly: The Torah is a "cryptic and ambiguous book" to those who have never bothered learning it.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-88464356344548067372010-12-23T16:26:44.310-05:002010-12-23T16:26:44.310-05:00Actually, enslaving someone is a subset of kidnapp...Actually, enslaving someone is a subset of kidnapping, which is forbidden for both Jews and goyim.CAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-84145625083470515032010-12-23T16:25:14.833-05:002010-12-23T16:25:14.833-05:00CA: I don't think not being allowed to enslave...CA: I don't think not being allowed to enslave others is part of the 7 mitzvos bnai noach. The Torah is eternal and we never ass or subtract from it. You can use the takana of R'G as a question but it is not a proof of anything. e:I dont know what you mean by cryptic and ambiguous. Just because you have probably never bothered actually going through it with Rashi and are only aware of most of the halachic sections from side references in a couple of sugyas of gemara you have no right to make any pronouncements. All I know is that Rashi and Ramban were both definitely much smarter than you and they saw Torah as anything but a cryptic and ambigous book.mornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924316815185498346.post-82537775446912095142010-12-23T15:58:08.335-05:002010-12-23T15:58:08.335-05:00I don’t understand the second statement.
Re: firs...I don’t understand the second statement.<br /><br />Re: first statement: well, there is no logical reason to believe that there should be a correlation between how much G-d’s laws make sense to us and the probability of Him having given them.CAnoreply@blogger.com